MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

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MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#1  Postby TWW » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:09 am

The video posted Wednesday night on Facebook Live appeared to show the aftermath of a shooting like that described by Mangseth. It shows the woman in a car next to a bloodied man quietly slumped in a seat. The woman describes being pulled over for a "busted tail light" and her boyfriend being shot as he told the officer that he was carrying a pistol for which he was licensed. A person who appears to be an armed police officer stands at the car's window, and sounds distraught as he tells the woman to keep her hands where they are and intermittently swears.


source: http://kstp.com/news/police-state-fairgrounds-falcon-heights/4192057/?cat=127

I have wondered if you get stopped by the police if the best thing to do is take out one's billfold and put it on the dashboard in plain sight before the officers even get out of their car and then put hands on the steering wheel. Reaching for a billfold while seat belted in is hard to do but if you take off the seat belt before the officer gets to the car makes it look like you are not wearing a seat belt.

The incident in in Falcon Heights at first sure sounds like it was caused by a lack of communication but it is too early to really know. Any expert thoughts out there?
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MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#2  Postby Cheap Shot » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:13 am

If I were to get pulled over:

I would pull over and park safely.
I would turn on my flashers, roll down my window, and shut off the ignition.
I would sit, with my hands on the steering wheel, until given instruction by the Officer.

Like I tell my kids. You don't know why you are being stopped. Maybe you match the description of a violent armed criminal. Don't do anything to add to the Officer's stress.
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#3  Postby TWW » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:35 pm

Thanks for the reply Cheap Shot. I had forgotten about the flashers and turning off the engine so it was a good refresher. But I think there is more to this.

I once saw a video of an officer shooting a guy who was reaching over for his registration and it is very possible the situation over in MN at a location I have driven by many times when I lived over there may well have had a driver trying to get out his wallet after telling the officer he had a concealed carry license. My initial impression a good cop made a horrible mistake as humans sometimes do but like they say I was not there. What really happened will have to wait for a hopefully impartial investigation.

Now my real concern is should people keep their registrations in the glove box hard for a driver to reach like I do and wallet in a pocket where it is a struggle to get it out like I do. That means more movements that could be misunderstood by a police officer rather than the license and registration and insurance out in the open on the dash when an officer approaches a car. The standard answer seems to be wallet in pocket and papers stored until asked to get them but how do people know their actions when nervous won't be misunderstood?
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#4  Postby grouchyoldcripple » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:37 pm

First, my advice on what to do if you are pulled over:

As stated above, pull over safely, stop, 4-ways on. If you want to shut the car off, fine. It’s enough to put it in park (stick-shifters, out of gear with parking brake on). Driver’s window down. INTERIOR DOME LIGHT ON, especially at night. Illuminating yourself will do more to ease tension than anything else. If the cop can see you, he is much less likely to be jumpy. And both hands on the steering wheel.

It goes without saying (but I’ll say it anyway) make sure your license and registration and insurance are current and valid, and know where the paperwork is in your car. If you are armed, KNOW THE LAWS. In some states (Michigan comes to mind) you are required to tell the officer that you are armed when he/she contacts you. In Wisconsin, you are not required to volunteer the info. If you are asked, you have to answer honestly. What not to do….. DON’T tell the officer that you have a gun as you start reaching into your pocket or waistband. That is information that should be accompanied by your hands staying glued to that steering wheel.

DO NOT EVER ARGUE WITH THE COP. The time to disagree is in court. Be polite, do what they tell you, and ask permission to take any action. If they say, “Don’t move!” that is a signal to you that in their mind, the tension has gone up a few notches and you need to OBEY.

You don’t know whether you are being pulled over for a broken tail light or because your car matches the description of one just carjacked a mile away by an armed banger. The police response is going to be different based on the perceived threat. Remember that they don’t know who you are, and until they are sure that you are NOT a threat, they have to assume that you might be. There are no “low-risk” traffic stops. There are “high-risk” stops and “unknown risk” stops.

And second…… There is not enough information yet for me to say much about this shooting in Minnesota. We have one side of the story, from the girlfriend. I would be very interested to see any dashcam or bodycam video from the police if it exists. My initial impression is that the girlfriend seemed remarkably calm and the police officer was quite upset. Further comments will wait until we have more information.

Finally, one lesson we can take…… It is entirely possible, especially if more than one officer is involved, that a driver or passenger will be given conflicting commands. The one to obey is ALWAYS, “Don’t move!”

Stay safe.
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#5  Postby Reality_Czech » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:51 am

Good advice, Grouchy
"Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#6  Postby mimalmo » Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:37 pm

Yup, got pulled over once while carrying (passed an unmarked car - whoops), had my license and permit to carry in hand before he got to my car where I had all 4 windows down and hands on the wheel. Handed him my license and permit, had a conversation about speed and was sent along my way.

As with most things, have a plan. If you don't have a plan, you're the one that's going to have issues.
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#7  Postby SidecarMike » Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:17 pm

Coming home from a family reunion across state this morning. I heard a report that the "victim" was actually stopped for something about an armed robbery, but I can't find anything about it online. Anyone have more information?
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#8  Postby TWW » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:54 am

Try: http://www.startribune.com/lawyer-castile-pulled-over-because-he-matched-robbery-suspect/386221031/

Several quotes from the story are interesting on the surface:

Albert Goins, an attorney who assisted the family in the hours following the shooting, said that if Castile was indeed a robbery suspect, officers would have initiated a felony traffic stop.

“A felony stop does not usually involve officers walking up to your car and asking you to produce your driver’s license,” Goins said. “A felony stop involves bringing the suspect out at gunpoint while officers are in a position of cover and having them lie on the ground until they can identify who that individual is.”


Castile had been pulled over at least 52 times since 2002 and given 86 citations for minor offenses such as speeding, not wearing a seat belt, or having expired license tabs, according to the Associated Press. About half of those violations were dismissed.


Comment: it is hard to believe Castile had not been stopped since he got his carry permit so knew how to act and done so previously but perhaps he changed his driving habits after getting the permit and had never been stopped while carrying before. Eventually we may find out what really was going on.
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#9  Postby SidecarMike » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:19 am

TWW wrote:Try: http://www.startribune.com/lawyer-castile-pulled-over-because-he-matched-robbery-suspect/386221031/

Several quotes from the story are interesting on the surface:

Albert Goins, an attorney who assisted the family in the hours following the shooting, said that if Castile was indeed a robbery suspect, officers would have initiated a felony traffic stop.

“A felony stop does not usually involve officers walking up to your car and asking you to produce your driver’s license,” Goins said. “A felony stop involves bringing the suspect out at gunpoint while officers are in a position of cover and having them lie on the ground until they can identify who that individual is.”


I can dispute this, though it was a generation ago. Around 1972 or 73, I drove a beat up Cadillac convertible. Myself and my father-in-law were coming home from work one evening when we were stopped. The officers approached the car from each side. Stoney commented that in the mirror he could see the cop had his hand on the butt of his revolver. When he got to the window, the officer informed us that they were looking for two guys that robbed a local jewelry store, escaping in a white convertible. Evidently, we didn't look like the armed robbers. I had about 15 miles to go to get home. He suggested we drop the top so we wouldn't get stopped again.

As I said, this was years ago.
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#10  Postby TWW » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:38 pm

The quote was from someone with an axe to grind so I hoped some of the LEO people would respond about what it means.
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#11  Postby grouchyoldcripple » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:56 pm

A perfect example of why we should not draw any conclusions until all the facts are known. We get little bits of info that slant things one way or another and then someone uses them to make unwarranted statements about the incident. We have very little info about this and that will not change any time soon. This is the reason that if YOU are involved in any use of deadly force, you make NO statements to anyone except YOUR attorney, and hopefully your attorney will have the brains to NOT talk to the press at all, for any reason.

We have absolutely NO IDEA what transpired in the encounter before and during the shooting and NO IDEA why shots were fired. We can speculate until hell freezes over. WE DON'T KNOW. And we, meaning the general public and the press, are not the ones who will decide the fate of the officer involved. Hearing a lawyer pontificating about police procedure makes me alternately laugh and barf.

Sorry. I have to go rinse my mouth out now.

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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#12  Postby SidecarMike » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:49 am

There is now some question about whether or not he actually has a permit. Ramsey county has no record of him ever applying and it appears that no license was found in his possession.
I recently spoke to an information officer in Red Wing about renewing my Minnesota permit. She mistakenly thought I was a resident, and said that I can only renew it in the county in which I reside. Even after I explained that I'm out-of-state, she told me I need to renew in the county that issued the license. Her exact words were "The permit is the property of the county in which it originated".
You are required to notify the sheriff's dept within 30 days if you have changed residence.
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#13  Postby EDIII » Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:54 am

SidecarMike wrote:There is now some question about whether or not he actually has a permit. Ramsey county has no record of him ever applying and it appears that no license was found in his possession.
I recently spoke to an information officer in Red Wing about renewing my Minnesota permit. She mistakenly thought I was a resident, and said that I can only renew it in the county in which I reside. Even after I explained that I'm out-of-state, she told me I need to renew in the county that issued the license. Her exact words were "The permit is the property of the county in which it originated".
You are required to notify the sheriff's dept within 30 days if you have changed residence.


It's correct the issuing dept owns the permit; address change notification is required, and need to be made through the issuing dept. So it at least sounds reasonable that the out-of-state renewal would be through the issuing county.

Being a St Paul resident, I've been following this pretty close.

It seems to be pretty well established his permit was issued in Hennepin Cty. when the guy was a resident of Robinsdale, a Mpls. suburb, per his relatives.
By MN law, having a MN PTC is not public information.

My suspicions/ speculations are, that like most incidents, there is a long chain of events that converged.
Based on the existing video,it appears the guy informed the cop he had a gun and a permit as he was reaching for his wallet.
The cops's lawyer is claiming the cop saw a gun, and the guy didn't stop moving.
Given the nature of this guy's driving record- reported 50-80 citations from some petty stuff to driving without insurance/ after revocation, pot possession, it would seem he was either not too bright, or had anti-authority issues.

By accounts from some, he was a good guy.
Other places an online video, we see him and the same woman, getting high with an infant present.
The woman in the aftermath video mentions there is pot in the car, which, if true, and he was carrying, would make him a felon, and also invalidate his permit if intoxicated.

I don't see this as a 'permit holder shot by police' issue, as much as a traffic stop gone really bad, for what ever reasons.
The whole incident, like the Dallas police murders, is getting spun into something far different than the original incident.
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#14  Postby SidecarMike » Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:35 am

It bothers me that a very calm woman was able to start taping while the officer still had gun in hand. My suspicion is that the taping started well before, maybe when they were first pulled over, and was then edited to fit her claims.
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Re: MN permit holder shot by a police officer?

Post Number:#15  Postby EDIII » Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:59 am

SidecarMike wrote:It bothers me that a very calm woman was able to start taping while the officer still had gun in hand. My suspicion is that the taping started well before, maybe when they were first pulled over, and was then edited to fit her claims.


Her odd demeanor- given the fact her boyfriend was just shot in the next seat, with her daughter in the back seat, is at least surreal, and even suspicious to the cynical like myself.
I can't imagine someone having the ability to act so calmly under those conditions.
(Have my suspicions about why she was calm, and why the guy made a dumb move; it stems from the fact neither were strangers to smoking pot)

You raise an interesting point.
Some have said that taping traffic stops is common for those concerned about police harassment, it's been my thought, if that were the case, one would start taping as soon as they were lit up.
Supposedly it was posted live, by her, as a means to preserve evidence. Some have said it's not an uncommon practice(live posting), I can't say.
When the video was first posted, shortly thereafter, the post was taken down, then later reposted.
I don't suspect anything, but, there's a British tabloid that's been suggesting that the police took her phone, took down the video, edited it, and reposted it.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/08/castile_shooting_police_deletion/

Given the first posting was copied all over the world before it disappeared, and no alternate/ tampered versions have show up, I don't buy that story that the cops did anything.

The cops didn't have body cameras, but the squads (at least 2 present), did have dash cams.
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